Disability and Stigma

Molly and Mel talk about the stigma's surrounding disability

Video Transcription

Molly: Recording is about to start…(Mel: yep here we go) Hello! OK so let’s try that again because we both have cognitive difficulties because of our disabilities and (laughing) we forgot to press record, so (Mel laughs) um, I’m Molly and I’m here with the lovely Mel.

Mel: Hello!

Molly: Hello! We are both members of the Disabled Students Society, we both have disabilities, which is fairly self-explanatory, and we just wanted to talk about disabilities really, didn’t we?

Mel: Yes we did! And complain at society and its view on them!

Molly: Basically, yeah. Because it’s all, it’s all you talk about when you’re disabled, all you do is talk about disabilities, you don’t do anything else.

Mel: Oh, obviously not.

Molly: Well, you do, but um (both laugh) but today we’re actually going to talk about them. Um, because we’ve seen a few things on social media recently, as well as other members of the society as well. Um, have you turned the captions on? Or shall I just do the transcript afterwards?

Mel: I think it automatically produces the transcript, I’m not sure. I’m not Teams aware, or savvy!

Molly: I think there are apps we can make if we, if we like post this there are apps where we can make captions for as well.

Mel: I think when I did a presentation the other day when I uploaded this to stream to video, it then created an automatic transcript afterwards, but I suppose we can see.

Molly: We’ll find out, and if not I’ll, I’ll write one, cause it’s one of my favourite things is writing transcripts, I actually really enjoy it, so, um (laughs) and I’m not even being sarcastic. Anway, um, we’ve all seen some things on social media (pause) which um, they do sort of highlight people’s opinions on people with um, visible and invisible disabilities, and how they are perceived as potentially being less physically desirable, and, you know, when you’re not much to look at to begin with that can be quite (laughing) hurtful, because you need all the help you can get, and I’m not referring to Mel there at all, um she’s beautiful. But yeah we just kind of wanna talk about that from a disabled person’s perspective and um, maybe we’ll learn some things on the way, who knows? Or maybe we’ll just rant for half an hour (laughing) I don’t, I don’t know.

Mel: Yep, that’s more likely. (both laugh)

Molly: So yeah, um, the thing that inspired me, uh, to ask Mel to join me to do this was, uh, this post about, uh, a man with Crohn’s Disease, or a similar condition, I’m assuming it’s Crohn’s but I don’t know. Um, he wore a stoma, um, but the first picture of him is fully clothed, he just looks like he’s going about his everyday life and um, there’s a caption saying “Excuse me, sir, this is the accessible toilet.” And the second picture, uh, the man is just in his boxers, and you can see his stoma, and he’s like “Yes, thank you, I am aware.” Um, and yeah, we, we all had quite a lot to say about that, a lot of us had seen it before, probably a lot of other people have seen it before, um, yeah, so…

Mel: Yeah...it, it’s, I think, personally, that, that is something which both, in fairness, non disabled people and disabled people do. (Molly: yep) I have seen per, personally I’ve seen it myself that, I think I was in a theme park or somewhere like that, and a person went into a disabled toilet. I didn’t think anything of it, you know, you’re using the toilet, fine, and some people said to this person “‘Scuse me but this young girl is in a wheelchair, and she’s waiting to use the toilet” and then this person said “Well actually, I do have a disability.” And though I never questioned it, because as far as I’m concerned if, you can go, I don’t mind, I don’t know what’s wrong...well not wrong I shouldn’t say, what condition you have, it’s not my personal business. Other people likely assume that that person wasn’t disabled because unlike me they weren’t physically disabled, or it wasn’t visible to them. And to be honest I think sometimes you can not so much catch them out, it’s not the right word, but catch out people who don’t have a hidden disability, don’t have a physical disability but use the toilet because it’s convenient. And then as they come out and you’re sat in a wheelchair, whatever you maybe use and they see you they sort of look then look away, then look as if to say “Oh” and then run away, it’s, it’s quite funny. But irritating, but also quite funny because you just look at them and go (sigh) really?

Molly: Yeah, I mean, I still feel the need to apologise when I use an accessible toilet or a disabled toilet, and, um, I only tend to use them if I’m genuinely like “Look, I’m go, I’m so desperate, if I don’t go right now I’m going to have an accident” uh, cause that can happen with my condition, um but I’ve been, I’ve had so many glares from people - not, not even like disabled people or like elderly people needing to use the toilet but from people around them. Like I’ll say sorry, they’ll be like “It’s OK, don’t worry” and you know, I’ve had people glaring at me, um, around me and I’ve just been, it’s been tempting to be like “Actually, I know I look like a young and well woman, but if you saw me a couple of years ago I had a zimmer frame, and I could have walked straight into that toilet and you wouldn’t have said anything. Um, but it’s just like I don’t need to justify myself (Mel: no) to people that are too judgemental to think that.

Mel: Well what concerns me about, and I, I said it to you before, about, we already have the hidden disabilities lanyard with the sunflowers. This has been taken away from us because of the pandemic and it’s difficult enough to manage. But then do we need another lanyard to show that we have a hidden disability but we can use the toilet? Do we need another lanyard to show that we can access the train? Do we need to be carrying round different things? And I’ve seen some people on the society who are even suggesting “Oh well there’s a disability ID card is a good idea.” And to me personally with things like this it’s not a good idea because why should we as disabled people, as equal citizens in this country, have to carry something to say that we are disabled and that we should have access to the exact same things as, as anybody else, or in this case, a disabled toilet. Why should we have to provide a card or lanyard just so people don’t glare to say “Yes I am disabled”?

Molly: Yeah, I know what you mean. I do, and does that gentleman I was talking about with the stoma have to walk around in his underwear so people are aware that he is disabled and he needs to use the disabled toilet and of course like that is just ridiculous, why would you ever ask people to do that? And you shouldn’t have to, like it shouldn’t be a question of that and it’s not really down to anyone to judge who is and who is not disabled. It’s not really necessary, I don’t really see why it is necessary in most circumstances.

Mel: I don’t think it should be necessary at all and I think even with some disabled people willingly perhaps wanting to get these ID cards so I understand it’s a frustration; you are playing into the stigma by getting a card because then that means that the people who don’t want these cards then have to get one because suddenly people people go “Well if they can get one why can’t you get one?” and suddenly we all have to become these people carrying round proof to show that we are disabled and we shouldn’t have to provide proof. (Molly: no) Society shouldn’t be forcing people to feel so uncomfortable that they feel the need to want to provide proof for something that you shouldn’t have to in the first place.

Molly: Now I, I would happily, I would happily get a card, because to me it’s, I mean I actually used to have these cards um, I lost them, um, from the MS Society, um, with a list of things and there was one where it said “I need to use the toilet urgently; please can you help me?” in different languages in case I was travelling. Um, there was another one where it was like “I, I can’t see, I can’t verbalise right now,” all sorts of things like that, “I need your help; please can you help me?” Um, the same with Medical ID bracelets. Like, I wear Medical ID bracelets, um my sister does for different conditions...to me having a card is no different to that, but I just don’t see why there’s this obligation like “Oh, it’s your job to inform us that actually you are disabled” because it’s almost again it’s like, if you talk about your disability too much, you’re fishing for attention. And then if you don’t mention it and then suddenly you’re like “Oh yeah actually, I, I have this disability”, people are like “Well why, why do you never talk about it?” like “Why do you, why have I only just found that out?” and then they’re offended (Mel: yeah) because you haven’t told them, you just (laughs) it’s a difficult one to, to navigate.

Mel: Exactly, you can’t exactly balance that out and then (stutters) it’s difficult because you don’t want to start a conversation be like “Hi, my name’s Mel, I study this” and, and then, people, I say “Oh, I have Cerebral Palsy” and then some people be like “Oh, well if you feel the need to mention your disability” but then if I don’t mention it to you, you’re gonna stand around awkwardly for a long time, perhaps even a few meetings later and then say to me “Oh well what, what do you actually have?” And, and it’s difficult to manage...communication really, it’s difficult to know where that balance is. When can I discuss my disability - is it only when it’s appropriate for you, and when you feel like I can discuss it? (chuckles)

Molly: Yeah I’ve had that before, like I’m very much an open book and I’m just like, I used to be like ‘I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna bring it up’ and try and make it fairly natural when I bring it up but I’ll try and do it sooner rather than later because I don’t want there to be any nasty surprises later on. Er, for example in the workplace it’s very much “Yes, I have, I have Multiple Sclerosis, these are the things I find difficult” erm, cause I don’t want them to think that I’m withholding information from them. They’re my employer, they’re my colleagues, they’re whoever. Um, and again like if I’m making friends with people that’s quite an important thing for me to want them to know because if something happened, it’s, it’s fairly unlikely to, but if it did, I kind of want them to have thought, “OK, so she’s someone I care about, erm, I’m going to do a little bit of reading” I don’t expect them to have like a PhD in Neurology or anything (chuckles) cause that’s ridiculous but you know just a little bit of background reading if they want to, I’m not gonna force everyone, say “Oh yeah if you’re my friend, you should have done this,” but if they want to they can, and they can find that out if they want to. And then that way as well they know it’s a very natural thing to me, um, you’re quite the same, you’re very much sort of “Well it is what it is” (chuckles) um, you know, you can, you know you can ask me questions about my condition, I can ask you questions about your condition, cause we’re friends and we’re open about that, but it’s very hard to get it right, and again as I said earlier it’s almost like, um, it can, it can make you seem less desirable for some people if you have a disability like, um, if we’re saying...we’ll just pretend that I’m this like beautiful woman, I’m like a supermodel, and people could be like (Mel: you are!) yes? (laughs) I say pretend it takes quite a lot of imagination but um (laughs) my sister’s here and she’s laughing at me. Um, it would be like “Oh, it’s such a shame though, that she’s got that condition” you know “It’s such a shame that she’s so pretty but she’s got this condition”. And that’s nothing anyone’s ever said to me but um, that’s probably (laughing) because I’m not pretty! But um, um yeah it’s, um, it’s like people it’s such it’s automatically a bad thing. Like “Oh, I’d really, I’d be really interested in them, but they’re in a wheelchair” or “but they you know, walk funny” I don’t know what it is, like some people that’s an automatic no (Mel: mm) um, as well.

Mel: Yeah, that happened.

Molly: Yeah, it does. We did our dating article, do you remember that? Our “Problems with Dating when you’re Disabled”?

Mel: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember. But um-

Molly: Yeah, I was shocked by that.

Mel: Oh yeah it’s awful, it really is. I remember, oh this is awful, I had one date and I’d been talking to, um, my friend introduced me to online dating, she said “Well, you know, you’re not maybe, you’re not connecting with people round here. Maybe if you do online dating you might be able to meet someone new, it’ll be all different.” OK, joined online dating, you know, tried a few people, (stutters) I’m don’t really get along with you, and (chuckles) sometimes I’d say quite upfront like “I’m disabled” like “I have Cerebral Palsy”. At the time I used a mobility scooter so I’d say “I use a mobility scooter, I can’t walk far” you know, I’d say “This is why”. And people would automatically stop talking to me because of it and I thought ‘Well you know, there are people in the world like this,’ so you just move on, you move forward. Anyway this one person was talking to me for a while, I thought, ‘This is great, this is going well’. They asked if they could meet up with me, I said OK, you know, fine, and met up in a public place, all very safe and whatever, and (chuckles) he turned up, and he took one look at me, I’m in my mobility scooter, I’m nervous anyway because I have anxiety anyway, and I’m thinking ‘Oh God’. This guy turns up and he smiles and he sees me and goes “...Oh.”

Molly: No way.

Mel: Mmm. Uh, um, OK (Sid the bird chirps in background) just pretend that didn’t happen, maybe he’s nervous too. So I did everything, sat down, started talking and whatever, and then he’s like “Well, the thing is, I, I don’t want to continue.” I said “OK, fine, why?” That’s fair enough, like he said it to my face. (laughing) And he goes “Well the thing is, I don’t know if you can do stuff like a real woman could.”

Molly. No!

Mel: And I was like “I don’t understand what you mean” cause I was like, I was just a bit shocked, like you know like wow, no-one’s ever said this to me before. I was like “What do you mean?” and he goes “Well because of the way you are and with your disability. I don’t know if you could do things. And to be honest, as well, you didn’t even mention that you were disabled.” And I went “I did. I always put that I’m disabled, I always say what condition I have up front so that people know, I’m not uncomfortable. And he said, I said, “Why?” And he’s like “Well if I knew you were like that then I wouldn’t…” and stopped.

Molly: He wouldn’t have come?

Mel: (nods) Yeah.

Molly: Oh my goodness. This is exactly what I mean, what I was trying to get at, like “Oh you would have been lovely - if it weren’t for this”,(Mel: and-) and that it’s our obligation (inaudible Mel) to make everyone else aware.

Mel: Yeah it was so frustrating because I know that I always tell people anyway and I thought well, ‘You obviously liked me somehow, so why did this suddenly make a difference? Why should it make a big difference or an impact?’ It didn’t bother you when you supposedly didn’t know, and then you turn up and tell me that I’m not a real woman because I’m disabled.

Molly: Yeah, like I mean like I can understand it being a surprise in, in, if we’re looking at it statistically like, one in four people have a long term ment- a long term health condition, like physical health condition. Um, so you know, statistically, that means three quarters of people don’t (Mel: yep) and you fit into that other quarter. But yeah, you did tell him and as you said it he was interested in you anyway he should have been like “OK, I’m gonna at least try to adjust to this,” not respond like that, and…(inaudible)

Mel: Or even if he had said, you know, “I don’t want to see you” and you know, that would have you know been fine, that’s fine, like sometimes these things don’t work out, that’s absolutely fine. But he could have picked a bit of a nicer way to say it. And then like you were saying before about people saying that “Oh she would have been such a pretty girl if she wasn’t in a wheelchair” or something. Somebody, a few months ago actually, said to me like “Oh well you will never be able to date a boy if you keep on dragging that contraption round. As long as you need that nobody will ever want to date you” because of my walking frame. “You should ditch that.” And I said “Well I can’t just ditch it because I have Cerebral Palsy. I can’t walk without it.” And like “Oh well, you know, you would have made a really nice girl for someone if you didn’t use those sorts of things, and if you just tried harder (chuckles) it’s just so frustrating!

Molly: You know what’s frustrating me about hearing this is, um, you know some, sometimes, it is the case that people can’t ‘do things’ the same way. I know what he’s referring to (Mel: yeah) when they have a physical disability. However, in a lot of cases, it’s not, and he didn’t even ask. (Mel: Exactly) you know, if he’d asked, if (stutters) if it’s a big thing for him in a relationship, (Mel: yeah) and you weren’t capable of that that’s oh, you know I suppose that’s fair enough, but (Mel: yeah) he didn’t even ask.

Mel: At least ask first!

Molly: At least ask. And you know, people are allowed to find able bodied people more attractive than disabled people, they are (Mel: of course) you know I’m not going to say they’re not (Mel: inaudible) because that makes us out to be like we’re some sort of heroes, we deserve to be put on a pedestal. Um, but you know, and the end of the day, beauty is more than just skin deep and … um, beauty is more than just how well someone can walk without a ‘contraption’, you know? When I, when I had a zimmer frame I just, I (stutters) I saw it as an extra limb. I, I used to just own it, um, I tried to make jokes about it (Mel chuckles) I used to make jokes about it like “Look how sexy I look right now”, um (both laugh) but you know, like different people deal with things different ways, and I can understand why a man would look at me, I’m 22 now, and if I did need a zimmer frame still, or needed one again, I’d understand why they’d look at me and think ‘Yes, maybe I don’t want to date this woman’ but at the end of the day…I think to shut someone down straight away because of that (Mel: yeah) and it’s like again, you know, people say you’re a pretty girl because you are (Mel: thank you) it’s almost like “How dare you be disabled” because, you know, “How dare you have the audacity to be pretty and disabled” because so many people would want you if you weren’t and (Mel: yeah!) you know, it’s like you’re being inconsiderate here (Mel: inaudible) this isn’t a choice that you have.

Mel: And um, it’s just, it’s so frustrating and I, I mean when we did that dating article I was just disgusted by some of the things that people do and um, I think as well, when, for par- when we live with our parents or maybe carers or people who are close to us, siblings, or whatever, it’s also very difficult for them because you know, they want people to treat us as people which, all, anybody would want really but (Molly: yeah) I think as well they want, they find it difficult because they don’t know how to respond, especially when they’re not disabled themselves, they don’t really know how to respond to the experience, experiences you have. (Molly: yeah that’s very true) And I think it’s very difficult for people when you don’t have other disabled family members, when you’re the only disabled person in the family, it’s difficult for them to understand until you do come back with these stories and you’re upset and you tell them these things. And I think I don’t, I don’t know, uh, I just, when you go through the internet and you read some of the disability dating stories, you, you just think ‘Why?’ And then you think ‘Well maybe actually I did a good job by not getting that one that was… (laughs)

Molly: I have to say my disability is one of many reasons why I’ve never tried online dating, and I don’t think I ever will, um, it’s, it’s like … for me it feels like an elephant in the room, when do I bring this up (Mel: yeah) because it’s not going anywhere, and I don’t know when it’s gonna show up again, I don’t know when I’m gonna get sick again, if I’m gonna get sick again. Um, my sister’s just brought pineapple, thank you. Um… (laughs)

Mel: Not on pizza I hope!

Molly: (inaudible) And I don’t know how it’s going to present itself. Like (inaudible) smiley face pineapple, but um it’s like when are you going to bring that up and I, I wouldn’t be able to handle constant rejection because of it, even though I would understand (Mel: yeah) but it would really hurt my feelings I think.

Mel: I think that’s what was most difficult for me, most especially is that when I made the profile, when I made it you know I put like my age, and that I was British because this happened in Canada, but I didn’t put I was disabled, I thought you know if someone is interested in me I want them to click on my profile and I want them to talk to me first and then I will say “Yeah, you know, I’m disabled”. I didn’t want to put it in the profile because I felt uncomfortable that some people might take advantage if they see that straight away.

Molly: Yeah we had a talk, do you remember, when we wrote an article actually, about dating, as a whole society.

Mel: Yep.

Molly: Um, we had someone say, we had a few people say that they put a little disabled icon in their, their bio. And that does make an awful lot of sense but I can also understand why people wouldn’t want to do that and I think again, um, it’s a case of, I go on about the Saviour’s Complex quite a lot. It’s like people want to be like “Look at me, I’ve got a disabled girlfriend” or “I’ve got a disabled boyfriend” whoever it is (Mel: yeah) um, “I’m, I’m so great because I’m going out with them even though they’re disabled” (Mel: yeah) it’s like, no, we don’t, we don’t need that sort of attitude, you know, in our lives.

Mel: Yeah I don’t understand that sort of attitude but I think especially, I don’t know, I found that when a disabled person is attracted to another disabled person, or they just have a similar condition, and they’re not even attracted to each other, people are like “Oh you’d look so cute together with your matching mobility aids!” And, well, I don’t, I don’t understand that. Where do you get this mentality that because I’m disabled I have to a) automatically be attracted to another disabled person (Molly: to another disabled person) because of my condition and b) that I can’t actually be attracted to able bodied people because there isn’t a similar condition, person has a similar condition, I need to be attracted to that person? And at the time, I was. And then we’d, you know, we’d go on dates together, people would be like “Oh, look how cute that is, oh look how sad that is.” (Molly: It is, yeah) It’s just so frustrating, you think that as a society that you just sort of, not even blink, we’re in the 21st century, we’re not living in 1970 anymore, people! (both laugh)

Molly: Yeah, like two 21-year-olds with a zimmer frame can go out together and just enjoy an ice cream, right? But, yeah.

Mel: I know, so tragic, so tragic, apparently!

Molly: And it’s like that other one, oh my gosh that one I showed you yesterday, and I did actually find that one on Reddit (Mel: sighs) on the Nice Guys subreddit which is a very sa- it’s a very satirical use of the term ‘nice guys’ (Mel: Reddit’s, Reddit’s) you know (both inaudible) yeah, like the ‘nice guy’, um, the one and it says something along the lines of “A disabled woman can get married to an able bodied guy”...

Mel: But I’m smart, yeah something like “I’m smart and an able bodied guy”...

Molly: (overlapping) yeah, “But then I can’t even” … yeah, but then what was the other bit it was like “But I’m an able bodied guy and I can’t even get into a relationship.” (Mel laughs) It’s like, yeah again, it’s like oh my gosh we should be thankful that anyone would possibly want us (Mel: mmm) like.

Mel: Mmm. When I read that the first thing I said to myself out loud was “I wonder why.” (both laugh)

Molly: Yeah, basically because as, as we say like beauty is not just skin deep, and he might be able bodied, like good for him, congratulations, it must be great, but you know, you’ve got a really ugly personality (Mel: yeah) if you’re using the fact (Mel: yeah) that people are in love and you’re not, regardless of whether they’re disabled or not against you, it’s just so disgusting.

Mel: Exactly. I really don’t understand this stigma around disabled people dating and having relationships and just generally enjoying a normal life like anybody else and exactly as they’re entitled to like anybody else. (Molly: I know, it does) And it’s just gets so frustrating (Molly: It is frustrating) And I think as well as we were saying before like you said that you know, you tell your friends about your disability and then they can go away if they want to and learn about that disability and you know, that’s perfectly fine and that’s what I do too. But some people just expect to be taught about disability and that we have to be the teachers that they can’t actually go and learn something themselves, that we have to go through life teaching people.

Molly: Mmm. I’ve had people tell me that I’m too heavy, if I bring it up too soon, and I get that but again it’s, it’s, it’s like, it’s with you and your dating experience it’s like, “When is the right time to bring that up?” It’s going to be different for everybody. Like some people wouldn’t blink if I was like “Hello, I’m Molly, I’m 22 years old, I’ve got a personality disorder and I’ve got Multiple Sclerosis” and some people wouldn’t blink if you said the same about yourself and Cerebral Palsy. But then other people would be like “Whoa, OK, whoa, that was way too much to take in. I’m going to avoid that one: she’s crazy.” (laughs) And so, I don’t know, it, it, it tends to just filter its way out now. Like, if someone said to me “Hey, do you have MS?” I’d be like “Yes”. I don’t really, I’m not ever going to pretend I don’t, but I don’t like wear it as a badge of honour anymore, like it’s, it’s just a thing, it’s, it’s there, um, it’s, it’s as I say, it’s not leaving, but it just, it is hard to think that a lot of people look at me and are like “Oh yeah I would date her but like, you know, what about her MS?”

Mel: Yeah, at this point, I’m just like yes, I have Cerebral Palsy (shrug) I’m not bothered. However when I did see a tweet on the internet which said about disabled people treat their conditions as badges of honour, and that they’re just, I can’t remember the exact phrase, it was something about that they whine about their conditions and they’re idiots for wanting to get vaccines and they should just get over it.

Molly: Yeah, Mel actually wrote a really really good article about that, so, um, (Mel: yeah I did) go and read it (laughs) yeah it was a really good article, actually. I really enjoyed reading that one. Um, but yeah the thing is like we do go through a lot of, of, of difficult experiences. You know, we’re often in a lot of pain, we face a lot of prejudice, you know we’re just asking for respect in return, it’s really not, it’s really not too much to ask, you know. Some, some disabled people yes, some people do use it for attention, some people do use it as a badge of honour if you want to. But, if that’s their way of dealing with it, like, I wouldn’t stop them. But, I dunno, maybe I’m wrong for thinking that.

Mel: (overlapping) Well something I, something I’ve learned is people just cope with things the way they do, really, that everyone copes with things differently. And that, I don’t think people giving disabled people respect should be something that we have to take a bit of it and be grateful for it. Everybody is deserving of respect, and it’s not something you should have to go through life fighting for people to give you respect, and not being - an example today, I walk down the road, no issues. I walk past two people, didn’t say a word, don’t know them. They see my walking frame. One of them, I feel eyes on the back of my head as I’m walking away. Turned round, they’ve turned around to look at me, and staring at me. And it’s just little things like that, that I wouldn’t do it to a non-disabled person, so why do it to me? Or why do it to another disabled person? (Molly: yeah) We’re all deserving of respect as people, and our experiences are what make us into the people we are. (Molly: absolutely) As long as we continue to have negative experiences within society, we are going to become more isolated, and that’s just going to increase the problems that we have. If we’re not seen out in public, people aren’t going to educate themselves, they’re not going to learn to just be around disabled people as people. (Molly: yeah I agree with that) And it’s a very difficult thing to balance. And until we learn to balance it as a society, we are not going to be treated as equals.

Molly: Yeah, I agree with that. We’ve been talking for about an hour now! Not quite an hour, but quite a long time. Have you got any like, takeaway messages that you, like … I think my neighbour’s home, any takeaway messages that you sort of want to conclude with?

Mel: Um, be nice to disabled people, be nice to everybody regardless. Don’t stare at people on the road, please wear a mask! Please! And also read our website. Our website’s very good, and it’s had lots of shares, and lots of likes all over Twitter, and everybody loves it (laughs)

Molly: Yes, um, read Mel’s articles, because Mel writes some really good ones. Um, if you do wanna learn more about Cerebral Palsy or MS we’ve got articles on them as well. Um, we’ve got, we’ve got articles writing letters to our former selves, telling us how life basically turns out, and we’ve got information about prejudice, we’ve got information about what it’s like to live with, with fatigue, with disabilities, um, and I think yeah my takeaway message would be, it’s a real cliché, but you, you never know what someone’s going through, and that definitely also applies to disabilities. Like, um, you might see someone in a wheelchair and you might think ‘OK, they can’t walk’, or you might see that but you might not see the trauma which caused that, you might not see the condition they’re living with, and the pain that they might be in as well. And like with that guy that I keep talking about with the stoma, someone might look perfectly fine and not be. So I think that would be my takeaway message, is, is don’t judge a book by its cover, and don’t assume that you know everything about someone because you probably don’t. Um, yeah, but this has been, this has been really interesting and thank you for being bonkers enough to do this with me.

Mel: And thank you for asking.

Molly: There is nobody else that is on the same level of crazy as me that would talk to me for this long (both laugh) so thank you Mel, I really appreciate it. I’ll leave you to enjoy your evening, and I’ll enjoy my pineapple.

Mel: OK. Thank you very much. Have a nice day.

Molly: Thank you, Mel.